“He that humbleth himself wishes to be exalted.” Friedrich Nietzsche
I recently heard a student in a Religious Studies class declare that Atheism was, “A pretty bleak way of looking at things – kind of a sad life to live.”
The only interesting thing about this sentence is who’s talking.
I’m willing to play along, though. Atheism has some kind of cultural tinge of being angry and nihilistic (in fact, to try to fit the horrifying ideal of Atheism I am currently crying tears of pain while reading Nietzche in a shower of razor blades and black vinyl while listening to the Cure and hating my parents). We have no reason to give any value to anything, because it is all atomic machinery whose deterministic status renders human life’s value describable in one meaningless word: Poopsack.
So, let’s be open-minded and pretend we’re religious for a moment. Let’s give a good ear to the Buddhas, the Prophets, the Gurus and the Imams and the Priests (and their wive(s), slaves, concubines, boys and other unmentionables) telling us to look beyond this life for answers.
So life is just absolutely stinking skidmark filthy – life is a wretched damned march toward hellfire, life is an illusion filled with suffering, life is a challenge to be met, life is a punishment. Life is a critique of our behavior, life is a period of failed awakening, life is a stretch toward re-incarnation, life is a scapegoat, life is a discarded empty atomic corpse from which blooms the beautiful fiery deadly flower of faith.
In appreciation of our upcoming event (SHAFT presents “Celebrate Your Mind”) your feedback is absolutely crucial:
What is positive about your secular humanist, atheist or free-thinking attitude toward life?
That it will never come again
Is what makes life so sweet.
-Emily Dickinson
Haha, the most positive thing might just be not having to spend 10 hours a week going to church or doing church related activities and not giving up 10%+ of my paycheck.
I remember when I was young hearing people talk about deep spiritual insights that they were gaining from reading the scriptures and my frustration that the holy spirit wasn’t inspiring me while I was reading in the scriptures about genocide, incest in caves, and brutal wars.
Now that I am an atheist I can skip trying to turn lead into gold and read books that are actually insightful and thought provoking. Instead of insipid general conference talks I watch ted. I get drunk on the money that would have been spent on multi-million dollar temples to glorify everyone’s favorite imaginary friend.
These are very positive devolopments in my life haha.
But perhaps the most positive thing about being an atheist is being an atheist in a religious world, and for that I have to thank all of my religious friends!
Most positive thing for me is knowing that I am not damned for not knowing and living perfectly every (or any) little bit of minutia. I can help people without feeling like I’m just filling out a scorecard to earn a better after life. I can focus on building a better life now instead of suffering through a living hell to build a better life after I die. And finally, I can live without lying to myself about who and what I am and what I can or can’t know or do.
Thornbrier,
You maybe missed the point of traditional Christianity. I am a creedal Christian and not a Mormon, so I don’t speak for the Mormon interpretation of the New Testament. I thought I would rewrite your sentences from a traditional Christian view, because they are not too different:
You: Most positive thing for me is knowing that I am not damned for not knowing and living perfectly every (or any) little bit of minutia.
Me: The most positive thing for me as a Christian is knowing that I am not damned for not knowing and living perfectly every (or any) little bit of minutia. Instead, God has forgiven me.
You: I can help people without feeling like I’m just filling out a scorecard to earn a better after life.
Me: Instead of focusing on my failures (these are forgiven), I can help people now without feeling like I’m just filling out a scorecard to earn a new start each day and a better after life.
You: I can focus on building a better life now instead of suffering through a living hell to build a better life after I die.
Me: Because I recognized my failures, received God’s forgiveness, and committed to live under God’s kind hand, I can focus on building a better life now and know that this new life in relation to God will continue into eternity in some way that I don’t understand. (I don’t worry about death anymore and can focus on life).
You: And finally, I can live without lying to myself about who and what I am and what I can or can’t know or do.
Me: I can live without lying to myself about who and what I am (a human who fails often but is created and recreated to do good) and what I can or cannot know or do. I have to remain humble in all my actions and discussions because I do not fully understand the Bible, Church tradition, God’s silent voice to my heart, or the reasoning of other great humans.
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There is little difference between your view and mine except a god who forgives and still calls to do good in the world.
As to who is saved* or ‘forgiven — I do believe that all forgiveness and life* comes from God* through Jesus the Messiah, Son* of God (I am a creedal Christian after all), but I do not hold that only those with the title Christians are saved. Rather I agree with Augustine (“How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!”) It is not my place to judge who is saved and who is condemned. Even the good atheist may find himself saved.
Be good.
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*What “saved”, “God”, “Son”, and “life” mean is complicated and embedded in mystery, so don’t role your eyes at the jargon.
Vince – I find your post confusing, and I have some questions.
There are right and wrong actions humans can choose, right? And God forgives people for their wrongs in some cases, as you say he has with you. I’m assuming you agree that in order to forgive someone of their wrongs, God obviously must be able to judge these actions as right or wrong, if he’s going to make the proper decision.
Do you agree that the only way someone can properly be called a “judge” is if they decide the fate of those they are judging – otherwise they are merely a spectator? So it only makes sense, if God’s going to forgive people of things, that he is also making some kind of decision about them after death, as to whether they’ll go to Heaven or Hell.
If God, on the other hand, simply forgives everyone, then it is not forgiveness whatsoever – it is the elimination of anything being right or wrong since all is merely forgiven. So God must be a judge, who influences you eternally.
I’m confused about your security about death in comparison with that of the Atheist, and how you see that these are in any way similar.
The Atheist most likely sees death as a dreamless sleep, the end of experience and consciousness thanks to the dissolution of our earthly body and brain – the real, absolute end.
Christians, however, will face a judge who is making an eternal decision about whether you will go to Heaven or Hell. It seems you have much invested in the afterlife, so here arises my confusion.
You confess that you “do not fully understand the Bible, Church tradition, God’s silent voice to my heart, or the reasoning of other great humans.”
How could you possibly have peace at all about death? Furthermore, why would you spend another moment doing anything other than trying to understand these things, since you will appear before an omnipotent judge whose moral theory is based completely upon them?
There have been clarifications and innovations in traditional Christianity, but there is a ‘Mere Christianity’ which I will try to stick to, but I’ll try to avoid jargon. I prefer to cast it in the existential language of Theologian Paul Tillich. Now to your questions.
1. “There are right and wrong actions humans can choose, right? And God forgives people for their wrongs in some cases, as you say he has with you. I’m assuming you agree that in order to forgive someone of their wrongs, God obviously must be able to judge these actions as right or wrong, if he’s going to make the proper decision. “
Yes, there are right actions. We have an intuitive sense of what is good. Like Socrates, we may not have a single definition of ‘goodness’, but we recognize it when we see it. As to G-d: G-d is creator of all and G-d is goodness. G-d calls his humans to do good. G-d judges humans according to their works. However, Christianity says all humans have failed and are lost (from G-d presence). We all know this existential wilderness. We all sense our lostness, our alienation. Christianity says, G-d offers forgiveness and a renewed life with G-d to those who cry out to G-d. The Good News (from the NT) says if we acknowledge our lostness in our selfishness and trust G-d will overcome our human failings — then G-d will. G-d will forgive and also create in his followers a new seed of goodness. There are different ways to say these two things (forgiveness and new creation) depending on the tradition (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant). All fall short and are lost. G-d offers a return to life.
2. “Do you agree that the only way someone can properly be called a “judge” is if they decide the fate of those they are judging – otherwise they are merely a spectator? So it only makes sense, if God’s going to forgive people of things, that he is also making some kind of decision about them after death, as to whether they’ll go to Heaven or Hell.”
I agree. G-d is the ultimate judge. He will judge and/or give mercy, and I cannot know G-d ultimate decisions over any human. Jesus says that humans should not condemn (“Do not condemn or you will be condemned.”). He is not saying that we should not assess behavior as wise or unwise or foolish, but Jesus is saying that people should not make final judgments of condemnation on any other human. As to how G-d judges or shows mercy, I will leave that to G-d. However, each human does know of their own failings, sense their own alienation. G-d calls with a silent call to everyone to return to G-d and receive mercy and a new seed of goodness within.
3. “If God, on the other hand, simply forgives everyone, then it is not forgiveness whatsoever – it is the elimination of anything being right or wrong since all is merely forgiven. So God must be a judge, who influences you eternally. I’m confused about your security about death in comparison with that of the Atheist, and how you see that these are in any way similar.”
Christianity basically says ‘You, human, were created to live well, but you have lived selfishly and sometimes even hatefully. Know that G-d has paid the debt for your hateful actions. He paid the debt through His (his Son’s) death on the cross (theologically complicated topic). If you confess and believe that G-d has taken care of your sin and commit to follow G-d to do good, then you have begun a new life … forever. This doesn’t mean you will live sin free, but will strive to practice goodness rather than practice hatefulness. Paul of Tarsus uses those terms ‘practice righteousness’ and ‘practice sinfulness’. The Christian is forgiven and, with thankfulness, strives to practice goodness. The one who cares little about goodness and forgiveness will ‘practice evil’. Paul is also careful to say that his faith and ‘salvation’ are not complete until he ‘finishes his race’ of serving G-d in this life. However, Paul trusts that G-d will get him safely to the finish line for the completion of his faith and salvation. So there is a sense of ‘fully saved’ but ‘not yet’. I am in the same boat. I have turn to G-d and now trust that G-d will keep me and mature me until the day I pass beyond this life. As to other humans — I cannot say how G-d will judge or show mercy towards anyone — Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Atheist, or Martian. All are saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah, but salvation and damnation don’t always follow the lines of the visible Church. Augustine says it this way “There are sheep outside the (visible) church and wolves inside.” C. S. Lewis writes of this situation in his Narnia tale, “The Last Battle”, when a follower of a different god finds himself in Aslan’s heaven (new Narnia).
3. “The Atheist most likely sees death as a dreamless sleep, the end of experience and consciousness thanks to the dissolution of our earthly body and brain – the real, absolute end. Christians, however, will face a judge who is making an eternal decision about whether you will go to Heaven or Hell. It seems you have much invested in the afterlife, so here arises my confusion.”
I have no clue as to what the afterlife is or is like. The key difference between Heaven or Hell is G-d’s presence or absence. This is described in various ways — ‘the light’ of G-d will be palpably felt to the saved and palpable absent for the those who have refused G-d’s mercy. I prefer to interpret this ‘damned’ afterlife like C.S. Lewis does. Those who refuse G-d’s mercy chose eternal separation. This separation is a mercy in itself. Being unforgiven and in the presence of G-d’s perfect goodness is a worse place to be. So the one who refused God’s forgiveness will mercifully be separated from G-d’s presence.
4. You confess that you “do not fully understand the Bible, Church tradition, God’s silent voice to my heart, or the reasoning of other great humans.” How could you possibly have peace at all about death? Furthermore, why would you spend another moment doing anything other than trying to understand these things, since you will appear before an omnipotent judge whose moral theory is based completely upon them?
Oh. I try to understand these things, but I must still do so with humility before G-d and men. As far as I am concerned, humility is a prerequisite to wisdom – Biblical or otherwise. I agree with Socrates in this. I believe there is Objective Truth — G-d himself. This is a necessary belief for the Christian. So I read the Bible to understand, I read wise Christians of other ages to understand the Bible, I listen to Church conclusions of bishop councils (Nicean) to understand, I also read wise teachers in other traditions (Buddhist, Jewish, & secular) because I believe all truth is G-d’s truth. I talk with friends and other believers to help me understand G-d. Finally, I trust that G-d, through His spirit, will continually to open my eyes. BUT I must always assume that I do not achieve perfect understanding. Most importantly, understanding goodness without doing goodness is meaningless.
Be at peace at all about death? Oh, perhaps I am not in perfect peace. Rather I continue to trust that G-d will show mercy and help me run the race to the end. I will continue to trust in G-d’s merciful kindness even as I continue to walk through this wilderness world.
It sounds like you are a great reader, and that you have done lots of theological work to come to your conclusion that God exists. Unfortunately I am no expert on Socrates or the Bible or even theology. So if you could help me to understand where I’ve gone wrong since our definitions of Socratic humility seem to be different.
So where we differ as an agnostic-atheist and a Christian, is that while we both believe there is likely Truth to be had – only one of us is wise enough to already have it.
You believe that our humility is similar, but not the same: as you say you do not fully understand, but you appear to be quite certain of the following two things:
1) God exists.
2) All truth is God’s truth.
Since you have declared that you know God exists, and that all truth is God’s truth, I am a little intimidated, because I myself have had no such experience.
As a rather stupid agnostic-atheist I am someone who doesn’t have good answers for these questions yet, since I am only human, and I don’t know how the Universe was created, nor what happens after death. How I wish I was enlightened about these things as the Christians and Buddhists are.
Since you are superior to me in knowledge of these cosmic things, I would ask that
“I should become your pupil…tell me, too, that I may become wiser, what proof you have…”
– Socrates, Plato’s Euthyphro
I love it! Excellent query.
Be patient. I try to limit my internet commenting time. An answer of sorts — soon.
For me, nothing is more enjoyable than knowing that I have this life to celebrate. Much like the Emily Dickinson post shared at the top of the page. I cherish my life and what it means to me because I don’t know what will happen to me after I die, if anything. And I’m okay with that. Accepting that reality has brought me more peace than trying to hold onto what someone else tells me will happen to me when I die.
I wish more people thought along these lines.
I am curious why the vast majority of the human race so often want to get rid of their fear of death by soothing it with some kind of supernatural explanation about an afterlife. There are these religious mantras which are chanted over and over again, “I know that it’s true. I know that it’s true,” as if we really need to actually get rid of our fear.
What! Why? Fear is a good thing. If you don’t fear death, there is something severely wrong with you. It is thanks to religious death-celebration that we get people confident enough to plot out bat-shit-crazy things like Jonestown and 9/11.
When we admit that we do not know, and that it is okay and natural to be a little afraid, then it is the only real, authentic peace to be found. I am so often pleasantly surprised by how “spiritually” healthy non-magical-thinking is.