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	<title>Comments on: Why I Don&#8217;t Believe: The Kinderhook Plates</title>
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	<link>http://usureason.com/2009/why-i-dont-believe-the-kinderhook-plates/</link>
	<description>Utah State University Rational Evolutionists, Atheists, Secularists, and Other Naturalists</description>
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		<title>By: Federal Farmer</title>
		<link>http://usureason.com/2009/why-i-dont-believe-the-kinderhook-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-2972</link>
		<dc:creator>Federal Farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I did notice that, Jon. I wasn&#039;t implying you were presenting it that way :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did notice that, Jon. I wasn&#8217;t implying you were presenting it that way <img src='http://usureason.com/wp-includes/images/blank.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley smiley-19' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://usureason.com/2009/why-i-dont-believe-the-kinderhook-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-2967</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 08:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;I don’t really see this as a nail in the coffin for Mormonism, nor to I believe that it reveals Joseph Smith to be a false prophet…&quot;

Nor do I. That&#039;s why I wrote the following: &quot;By themselves, the Kinderhook Plates may not constitute the most damning evidence against Mormonism.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don’t really see this as a nail in the coffin for Mormonism, nor to I believe that it reveals Joseph Smith to be a false prophet…&#8221;</p>
<p>Nor do I. That&#8217;s why I wrote the following: &#8220;By themselves, the Kinderhook Plates may not constitute the most damning evidence against Mormonism.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Federal Farmer</title>
		<link>http://usureason.com/2009/why-i-dont-believe-the-kinderhook-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-2965</link>
		<dc:creator>Federal Farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 07:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=277#comment-2965</guid>
		<description>Jon, I too have read much on the Kinderhook translations. 

I don&#039;t really see this as a nail in the coffin for Mormonism, nor to I believe that it reveals Joseph Smith to be a false prophet... but we would have to have that conversation in person.

Masonry and Mormonism have some interesting parallels, and as Jon has mentioned, many prominent members of the Church were active Masons throughout their lifetimes. Joseph Smith&#039;s involvement in Masonry most certainly had a powerful effect on him, and was openly encouraged in Nauvoo and other Mormon enclaves. Initially it seems that Smith believed Masonry would help to protect the Saints by garnering support from other Masons outside the Church (this was not the reason for Smith&#039;s involvement, but it was indeed considered a perk)... nevertheless, for the most part, Smith&#039;s Masonry meant little to other Masons outside his religion, and in some cases, Smith&#039;s meddling with masonic rites (and accusations that Smith was initiating women into the rites of masonry) served to alienate him and his followers from their Masonic brethren outside the Church. 

Interestingly enough, while Masonry has been an important part of Mormon history, Masonry has also served as an avenue for anti-Mormons to oppose the Church. Many of the first Masonic lodges in the state of Utah barred Mormons from joining and actively pursued membership from prominent anti-Mormons. 

Jon is right, early Mormons believed that Masonry held a number of truths but ultimately, they had been corrupted. While many of the rites are similar, the most important, fundamental aspects of the rituals are entirely different. I would disagree with the statement that Mormon temple ceremonies are simply &quot;Mason rites slightly modified.&quot; To an outsider, the rites may seem very similar. Yet to a member of the Church, the covenants are entirely different and the symbolism behind the rites and rituals (which are the most important part), are largely unconnected.

Today, many Mormons are Masons, nevertheless, I would say that the percentage of LDS men who are Masons remains relatively small within the Church (especially in the United States). In Brazil and other parts of Latin America, I have been surprised to find that a substantial amount of Church members are also Masons. Yet Masonry has nowhere the influence it once had in the Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, I too have read much on the Kinderhook translations. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t really see this as a nail in the coffin for Mormonism, nor to I believe that it reveals Joseph Smith to be a false prophet&#8230; but we would have to have that conversation in person.</p>
<p>Masonry and Mormonism have some interesting parallels, and as Jon has mentioned, many prominent members of the Church were active Masons throughout their lifetimes. Joseph Smith&#8217;s involvement in Masonry most certainly had a powerful effect on him, and was openly encouraged in Nauvoo and other Mormon enclaves. Initially it seems that Smith believed Masonry would help to protect the Saints by garnering support from other Masons outside the Church (this was not the reason for Smith&#8217;s involvement, but it was indeed considered a perk)&#8230; nevertheless, for the most part, Smith&#8217;s Masonry meant little to other Masons outside his religion, and in some cases, Smith&#8217;s meddling with masonic rites (and accusations that Smith was initiating women into the rites of masonry) served to alienate him and his followers from their Masonic brethren outside the Church. </p>
<p>Interestingly enough, while Masonry has been an important part of Mormon history, Masonry has also served as an avenue for anti-Mormons to oppose the Church. Many of the first Masonic lodges in the state of Utah barred Mormons from joining and actively pursued membership from prominent anti-Mormons. </p>
<p>Jon is right, early Mormons believed that Masonry held a number of truths but ultimately, they had been corrupted. While many of the rites are similar, the most important, fundamental aspects of the rituals are entirely different. I would disagree with the statement that Mormon temple ceremonies are simply &#8220;Mason rites slightly modified.&#8221; To an outsider, the rites may seem very similar. Yet to a member of the Church, the covenants are entirely different and the symbolism behind the rites and rituals (which are the most important part), are largely unconnected.</p>
<p>Today, many Mormons are Masons, nevertheless, I would say that the percentage of LDS men who are Masons remains relatively small within the Church (especially in the United States). In Brazil and other parts of Latin America, I have been surprised to find that a substantial amount of Church members are also Masons. Yet Masonry has nowhere the influence it once had in the Church.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://usureason.com/2009/why-i-dont-believe-the-kinderhook-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-206</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=277#comment-206</guid>
		<description>Your former student was well-informed. There are indeed striking parallels between Masonic rituals and the LDS temple ceremony. I&#039;d like to write up a fair review of the issue, but I wouldn&#039;t be able to get around to it for weeks. I&#039;ll mention a few things briefly, however.

Joseph Smith created the LDS Temple ceremony just weeks after being inducted into the highest order of Masonry, so we shouldn&#039;t be the least bit surprised about parallels between Mormon and Masonic temple rituals.

That early Mormons would boast that they had, in Brigham Young&#039;s words, a &quot;perfected Masonry&quot; demonstrated that even Mormon recognized the similarities. Heber C. Kimball, a Mason himself said, &quot;We have the true Masonry. The Masonry of today is received from the apostasy which took place in the days of Solomon, and David. They have now and then a thing that is correct, but we have the real thing.&quot;

I hope that piques your interest, Kleiner. If you care to read more into the issue, check out this link: http://mormonthink.com/templeweb.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your former student was well-informed. There are indeed striking parallels between Masonic rituals and the LDS temple ceremony. I&#8217;d like to write up a fair review of the issue, but I wouldn&#8217;t be able to get around to it for weeks. I&#8217;ll mention a few things briefly, however.</p>
<p>Joseph Smith created the LDS Temple ceremony just weeks after being inducted into the highest order of Masonry, so we shouldn&#8217;t be the least bit surprised about parallels between Mormon and Masonic temple rituals.</p>
<p>That early Mormons would boast that they had, in Brigham Young&#8217;s words, a &#8220;perfected Masonry&#8221; demonstrated that even Mormon recognized the similarities. Heber C. Kimball, a Mason himself said, &#8220;We have the true Masonry. The Masonry of today is received from the apostasy which took place in the days of Solomon, and David. They have now and then a thing that is correct, but we have the real thing.&#8221;</p>
<p>I hope that piques your interest, Kleiner. If you care to read more into the issue, check out this link: <a href="http://mormonthink.com/templeweb.htm" rel="nofollow">http://mormonthink.com/templeweb.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kleiner</title>
		<link>http://usureason.com/2009/why-i-dont-believe-the-kinderhook-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-205</link>
		<dc:creator>Kleiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=277#comment-205</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d  like to see a review of the connection between Masonry and Mormonism.  I&#039;ve heard this connection is drawn in Dan Brown&#039;s new novel.  Of course Dan Brown writes fiction, so I (and no one else) should take seriously the connections he draws (though it will be in the news if those connections are made in his book, as spurious as Brown&#039;s claims may be).  I have been told from a former student that the LDS Temple ceremonies (up until a fairly recent change) were basically just Mason rites slightly modified.  
I know little about the Masons, but if Jon or someone else can give a fair review of the LDS-Mason connection that would be interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d  like to see a review of the connection between Masonry and Mormonism.  I&#8217;ve heard this connection is drawn in Dan Brown&#8217;s new novel.  Of course Dan Brown writes fiction, so I (and no one else) should take seriously the connections he draws (though it will be in the news if those connections are made in his book, as spurious as Brown&#8217;s claims may be).  I have been told from a former student that the LDS Temple ceremonies (up until a fairly recent change) were basically just Mason rites slightly modified.<br />
I know little about the Masons, but if Jon or someone else can give a fair review of the LDS-Mason connection that would be interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: S Powell</title>
		<link>http://usureason.com/2009/why-i-dont-believe-the-kinderhook-plates/comment-page-1/#comment-201</link>
		<dc:creator>S Powell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 01:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=277#comment-201</guid>
		<description>Good series. Please keep it up. And yes I&#039;d love to see an installment on failed prophesies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good series. Please keep it up. And yes I&#8217;d love to see an installment on failed prophesies.</p>
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