Again, by way of clarification, I never advocated coming out as an atheist to your parents during the holidays. But more generally, why would atheists want to share their atheism?

First, the truth is a precious thing and it ought to be shared with those you love. Second, the way you respect others is to hold them to the same intellectual and moral standards to which you hold yourself. To do otherwise is to be indifferent toward people. If atheism is good enough for you, it should be good enough for others. Lastly, beliefs matters. They inform our actions. And insofar as one thinks religious beliefs can be harmful, one should work to disabuse people of such beliefs.

My point is, my Muslim mother, and many Muslims like her, celebrate Aashoura, and still celebrate Christmas out of respect, since Lebanon serves as a country for many religious faiths. So why not atheists? I came out to my mother as an atheist, and I brought my partner home for the holidays too; the same respect to shown any other faith is shown to my non-faith and my decision in brining my male partner home.

One other questions that comes up is why should atheists claim their belief, or non-belief, to other believers. What is the point? Why should impose our ideas on those who refuse to change or consider learning a different viewpoint. I would not say go so far as lying about your faith, but just keep it to yourself, and that way you save grief for you and your families. I suppose I just dont understand the wanting to spread your view as an atheist, when we really should be content with our on beliefs and leave it at that.

My dad also threatened my tuition over my communism, in fact Ive been catching more shit from my family for my communism than for my atheism.

While my mother’s social group is highly populated with those belonging to the LDS faith, I know my father encounters many non-LDS people. He’s a physician with a very large practice and encounters people from many religions, socio-economic, ethnic and cultural backgrounds. While he hasn’t been as active in confronting me as my mother has, the two times he has it has been exceptionally angry and even hateful. I’m under the impression that my parents believe that nice people can exist -despite- not being LDS – as though it is the exception to the rule instead of a perfectly acceptable norm. Actions viewed as sin (such as shopping on Sunday, responsible alcohol consumption, or the consumption of coffee) are met with a large measure of vocal and emotional disgust. Again, these are the attitudes I’ve seen displayed when I’ve been around them in private – whether they do it as an expected reaction or sincere revulsion is unknown. They have just not displayed much tolerance for those with different standards than themselves.

As far as them thinking it is just a phase, I understand the why – whether it is the commonality of a drop in religiosity during people around my age or a deep-seated belief that god will “soften” me up. I just don’t appreciate the implication that as long as my beliefs are different (for the record, this applied when I still believed in basic tenets of Christianity, such as Christ’s divinity and atonement for the sins of mankind, just not the LDS faith) they are solely out of rebellion, childish and not to be respected as a personal belief.

One positive thing, if you carry yourself well, is you put a face on atheism. Really, how many atheists do your parents know? Here in Utah, how many non-Mormons are they close with? It is a very homogenous place here. It is easy for them to treat atheism as something entirely “other”, since it does not have a human face for them.

I can understand parents thinking the atheism is a “just a phase”. Fact is, lots of college kids move away from their faith for a while and then return as they grow older. I’m not saying that will happen to everyone, but it is a pretty common thing. The hound of heaven might bite even the most hardened secularist someday!

As far as religious traditions, I’ve come to a silent agreement with myself when it comes to my family. If my parents talk about their involvement in church, I show interest – it is a huge part of their lives, just as my focus on education is a huge part of mine. When they pray I fold my arms and bow my head, but I don’t say amen. When my grandmother reads the Christmas story from Luke in the bible I sit and listen quietly – it’s a beautiful story and has always been a tradition. That’s always been the largest religious focus of Christmas Eve for my family. I usually play carols, secular and religious, on the piano, while my family sings and it’s a time to just be together and enjoy each other’s company.

While others may try and push the religious aspect hard, I have a simple reply: Christmas, for me, is about giving and being with family. Though my parents push religion on me at various other times through the year (we live in the same town) they tend to avoid such semantics at holidays – they know it causes stress on both parts. I avoid the same, though I always avoid trying to push my beliefs onto them. If I “argue” anything with them, it’s why having a glass of wine doesn’t mean I’m a horrible sinner, or that no, shopping on Sunday is NOT the reason my car was once stolen. I figure if they want the truth concerning their religion, it’s out there, but they mostly seem happy and both of them have a deeply-rooted need to believe in the afterlife and that’s alright with me.

The only timea I “push” anything is when my mother asks when I’m going to “settle down and focus on the important things,” or asks when I’m going to get my act together, go back to church and get my husband converted. I’m happily married, getting ready to start a master’s and my husband and I are working on remodeling our house bit by bit. We’re happy and, unless we have drastic changes, not planning on having children. This is the only time I’ll actively push back against her religious beliefs – I believe I’m much more than just a means of producing children while she believes having a child is ultimately the only worthwhile thing a woman does. I only fight this when it’s brought up, though I’m sure once I’ve been married a few more years things will get more intense. She thinks my lack of church attendance, or care about anything religious, is a rebellious stage and that I’ll finally grow up. At these I’ve tried to explain that it wasn’t something that came quickly or easily, and that religion (and a belief in god) simply doesn’t hold any comfort for me. I’ve also explained numerous times that my husband doesn’t care about religion, never has and doesn’t believe in her faith or Christianity, period. She’s stubborn in insisting I’ll change my mind on both accounts, though I simply maintain it’s my right to change my mind if I do, but she has nothing to do with those parts of my life. Again, I don’t bring it up, but these are two things I will not passively deal with.

Kleiner – I agree that generally trying to keep peace around one’s family is the best thing to do, though I would add the exception of standing up for yourself when and if confronted. Just remain calm, deal with them as people, and realize that if they are deeply religious (or not), they’re individuals and they’re your family. If you are consistently run over, boundaries can be important, but it never hurts to try and avoid conflict if you can.

My posts were in response to Jon’s initial post – where Jon stressed how uncomfortable it can be for atheists, how awful religious parents can be to their atheist children, how strained the time can be, the vindictive things that can be said, etc. But in his later posts Jon presents a far more optimistic view. I presumed, based on the first post, that tension, unproductive argumentation (though that video strikes me as fake), were par for the course and was the anticipated treatment for many SHAFTers. If not, if Jon’s later optimism is more often the case, then I am glad for that. I just wouldn’t count on it!

But if your family can sit down and have a respectful engagement of ideas where all leave with a better understanding of each other, then go for it. Most on this blog know me – I am not a shrinking violet who typically advocates swallowing one’s tongue (Lord knows I hardly ever do!). I just think prudence requires that one comport oneself with extra humility when you are home with your parents.

But one thing to remember is that man is not a perfectly rational animal (since many secular humanists are just rehashing the failed enlightenment, they often forget this). Just because there are reasonable arguments to make and thoughtful discussions to have, does not mean that things will pan out that way. We are not perfectly rational, nor is a perfectly rational society possible. This is nowhere more true than at home during the holidays. At the end of the day, I just think you approach questions of truth differently with your family than in other social contexts. There is a reason we have sayings like “don’t talk about politics or religion at the dinner table”. Some families can, but because of the unequal status of the parties and the emotionally charged family dynamic this is probably rare. Remember that as a college student, you are in a strange “between” for your parents. You are reading and thinking about all sorts of things your parents can no longer control, so have substantially more independence (you are no longer a child). But you still probably have a relationship of dependency in other respects. And it takes time, I think, for parents to learn how to be with their adult children, just as it takes time for adult children to reshape their relationship with their parents). This is difficult for both mothers and fathers, but around here I think particularly for mothers (the culture here often corners women into an identity of motherhood where their entire identity is wrapped up in that care-taking role, making the transition that much more difficult. Everybody Loves Raymond does a nice job of playing this out).

Obviously no offense taken, Jon.

One last remark: You can always count on Bill OReilly to make conservatives look crazed. But let’s not pretend that secularism is not ever militant. Religious expressions have a place in our society. I would not pick the fight over saying “happy holidays”, but there is a fight to be had concerning the desire of militant secularists to strip the square naked.

Merry Christmas!

And nobody here is advocating that people go on “religious rants.” Surely there is a difference between a respectful religious discussion and a rant.

Stuff like that is really unneeded, Jon.

I agree that it’s a waste of time to go on religious rants over the holidays. I owe a great deal to my parents, so I feel like the least I can do is show respect. If not for their beliefs, then at least for their traditions.

Well I’m sorry you’re not as persuasive as I am. ;)

Really, though, very rarely have I found a religious discussion a waste of energy. Even when I don’t persuade someone of my view, I think both parties are better off with an increased understanding of one another. Maybe it’s just my family dynamics or the company I keep, but I have yet to seriously regret discussing religious disagreements with anyone. If you approach such a discussion respectfully, people almost always return the favor.

“Instead, I’ve learned to live with the difference and with the hope that they way I comport myself speaks volumes more than the arguments I could make.”

I can appreciate differences, but I still think it’s preferable to reach mutual understanding, if not agreement. And again, I think you’re presenting people with a false choice: have a respectful comportment, or discuss religious disagreements. They’re not mutually exclusive in most cases. If one knows from experience that there can be no such thing as a respectful disagreement about religion in their family, though, then of course avoid the discussion.

In any case, it’s not my intention to get people to incite religious debates with their family during the Christmas season. If neither you nor your parents care to discuss religion, then don’t–just enjoy their company and the holiday. But in some circumstances, an airing of disagreements is healthy. I just want to stress that not every religious discussion needs to end in angry tears.

First, Ben, you are someone I respect greatly. I have always been aware of our differences when it comes to religion, and your dignified way in dealing with opposing viewpoints has made quite an impression. I appreciate the fact that you aren’t too shy to discuss religion, and when you do so, you behave graciously. Again, I think the way you approach the religious divide with your peers demonstrates that you are a very tolerant and wise individual.

Dr. Kleiner, I found your response to be quite enlightening. I think tolerance and humility demonstrate that an individual is open to truth. Too often our behavior is motivated by arrogance and malice, and we end up hurting those around us. In the end, no matter how correct our viewpoints and beliefs may be, if we act contemptuously we are doing more to undermine our position than promote it. Thankfully, I am blessed to have a family with a rich diversity. This has fostered a greater understand among family members and regardless of religion, race, sexual orientation, and/or political affiliation, we can all sit at the same table and break bread.

Jon, as a religious person, I have met a great number of individuals who don’t share the same beliefs, and regardless, treat me and my religious faith with respect. There are a number of atheists who frequent this site, for example, who are very courteous when the subject of religion comes up. For this I am grateful. Notwithstanding, I also have experience with people who openly disrespect my faith and demean me as a religious individual. Such behavior does not cause me to question my faith, but instead, compels me to cling even more tightly to my religion.

I think that the Christmas campaign led by American Humanist Association is an excellent example of atheists treating their religious counterparts with respect. When atheists and secularists lead exhausting crusades against religious expressions, I can’t help but feel indignant… not as a religious individual, but as a tolerant human being. In many cases, a nativity scene and/or a war memorial is simply reflecting the cultural identity or history of the community… it doesn’t actually threaten anyone directly, but instead, presents a certain belief or cultural identity.

With simple advertisements, I feel that the AHA is going to be more effective in propagating an alternative point-of-view, than if they unleashed an unrighteous flurry of anti-nativity law suits.

Finally, I don’t think that Dr. Kleiner is specifically “pinning” anything on atheist youths. I interpreted his comments to mean that whenever opposing viewpoints are at the same table and family is involved, it’s best to act respectfully and avoid a hurtful confrontation. As Dr. Kleiner indicated, such ugly episodes are possible with Marxists, Catholics, and atheists, not simply one exclusive group. I really don’t think its fair to “pin” this on any group in particular. We all know that believers and non-believers can act disrespectfully- perhaps the religious feel that a person’s soul is at stake, and the atheist believes that the person is offending their own intelligence… whatever the case, intolerance is widespread. BTW, great post.

I did not mean to pin it all on the arrogance of youth. I think that is part of it, and any discussion of these family dynamics would be incomplete without it. That is why I brought it up. By the way, I was pointing the finger squarely at myself and the way I comported myself as a college kid when I made those remarks. If you SHAFTERs are all substantially more mature 20 year olds than I was (a distinct possibility, I might add), then you won’t have those problems.

My guess is that both sides bring it up – the college atheist wears their atheism on their sleeve a bit too much (mini moments of worthless rebellion, like not bowing your head during the prayer) and that parents bring it up, precisely for the reasons you suggest. My larger point had nothing to do with assigning blame (who brings it up, etc). Rather, my larger point was about respecting the dignity of your parents. Respecting the genuine pain and concern they feel for you. Responding to that pain and concern with humility and grace, rather than argument. Even if you think their concern is based in a fantasy, it is a fundamental belief for them, it is a part of their own personal journey. That deserves and demands, I think, respect. That was my point.

Of course, your atheism is part of your own personal journey, and I think that deserves respect too. But just because it deserves respect does not mean it will get it. Your parents may well not respect what you are doing, and might well infantilize you when it comes up. That can be extremely frustrating. But I hardly think it changes your moral obligation to honor they father and mother. So be gracious. Someday when your kids become Catholic and you are terribly disappointed in them, you’ll hope for similar treatment.

Hey, take or leave my 2 cents on the matter. Just don’t invite me to your holiday dinner – I’ll accuse all of you (you SHAFT atheists and your Mormon parents) of having false beliefs!! (In fact, I don’t think Mormons understand what Christmas is at all, since they deny the Christmas miracle (suggesting that Christ was conceived “in the same manner” as you or I) plus they reject the two natures of Christ so don’t really have an incarnational theology, etc etc etc).